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Welcome to difficult dialogues voices from
the valley. President Holyoke College

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difficult dialogues is intended to bring
voices from the valley to bear on some of

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the most important and complex social
issues of the day today we're going to be

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talking about gender identity and I'm
pleased to have with me two guests Jenny

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Beeman who's the director of the
Stonewall Center at the University of

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Massachusetts Amherst and Mitch who is

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a faculty member in the university without
walls at the University of Massachusetts

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Amherst thank you so much for
joining me. There's been an

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interesting proposal in California that
is similar to Proposition eight and it is

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intended to reverse recent legislation
that would protect the rights of

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students to access to locker room
to bathrooms to sports teams

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that align with their gender identity tell
us what you think about the significance

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of this we have parents on both sides
of the issue who are saying this is

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a matter of parental rights how would you
frame the issue. Well I think that the

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religious right has lost largely on
the issue of same sex marriage and

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increase and I think they're moving
towards this issue as sort of

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a way to be able to create

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a false panic around particularly
but they see is being able to enter

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women's restrooms in locker rooms to be
able to harass assault women and girls

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which is really just a false pretext
last week there was for example

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a story in the ME that was just an
outright lie about that situation having

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happened in

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a public school really the
issue is not the fear of. Men

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who are biological man going
into women's restrooms or or

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a locker was really is to transfer people
who are the ones who are in danger we're

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the ones who are being harassed for
example a study that was done by

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a glisten the Gay Lesbian Straight Education
Network showed that two thirds of

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trans youth feel unsafe in their schools
that almost all had experienced

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verbal harassment and more than half had
experienced those school harassment in the

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past year since we would talk about is
trying to protect those those used and the

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truth is we've had for more than

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a year now the the state's war of elementary
secondary education issued guidelines

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in two thousand and twelve after the
nondiscrimination act in Massachusetts became

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law that pretty much does what California
does in terms of protecting trans youth

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when it comes to bathrooms locker rooms
build appear in sports teams in keeping

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with their gender identity as well as also
talks about about using appropriate name

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protecting privacy really fantastic
doc when they were already working in

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Massachusetts and I see little problems
with that being done. Mitch what do you

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have to say about this proposal absolutely

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a green agenda here that they critical the
thing that I'm most critically concerned

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about is the protection of trance tunes
who are you know subject to so much abuse

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and harassment in schools every day
and this really sends the message to

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transducers that they have a right
to be in school that they have

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a right to all of the public resources
and education they're available to other

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students. I think that it
also points to the need to.

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Critically and gauge to read the way we
think about gender and sexuality in our

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culture and that our binary concepts of
gender and sexuality don't hold up in to

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the lived experiences of people and I
think that we'll see that throughout this

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discussion that that's one of the major
shifts that our car culture needs to catch

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up with that we're organized around

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a. Concept of gender sexuality that
doesn't reflect the real lives of people.

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Jenny you mentioned language and how that
is used to shape perceptions could you

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talk

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a little bit about the law and the impact
of the legislation on on how we refer to

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individuals Well the. Language Around
around transgender is is one that is

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still the course valving the research that
I've done. People literally had hundreds

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of different terms they use is fried
their gender identity which really makes

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a mockery of having forms that as sex or
ass and I think that language is what

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some some people because
they have a perception that

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a trans woman is basically a guy in

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a dress. And so they have this idea
that someone's going to be entering

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a woman's locker room or woman's bathroom
who really is identified and looking very

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male and that's not what we're talking
about we're talking about individuals who

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who I very strongly identify and have since
very early in life as female who are

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presenting female who look very female
you'd be able to use the stories that make

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the most sense for them. Because they
measured that person trying to go into

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a men's bathroom or

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a men's locker room and what kind of
situation that's going to bring for them in

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terms of being assaulted being harassed
so it really the people don't have

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a grass we're talking about here in terms
of presentation terms of the language and

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what that means for individual lives. In
which you talked about gender not being

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this binary about but more of. A continuum
and so how do we use the how do the

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ways in which we use language reinforce
or re inscribed the notion that it is

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indeed

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a binary when you want to argue against that
well in fact I mean all of our cultural

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landscape including language and institutions
really reinforce this concept that

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there are two biological sexes and two
genders that culturally coincide so that

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male is a man or a boy
and female is a girl or

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a woman and in fact there's intersex
children plenty of intersex children that

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trouble that binary on

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a physiological level and then there are
transgender people who have numerous

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numerous identities in between that spectrum
and you know very often what comes to

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attention is transsexuality But even
but. You know for some transsexual

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people these this binary fits for their
gender identity but for many many many

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trans people the binary doesn't quite
reflect our identities and so I think that

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it's important just to constantly be opening
up our ways of thinking about gender

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and sexual identity. You talked about
bullying and harassment in the schools but it

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takes place in the workplace
as well but there was

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a recent South Dakota case which was

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a landmark case in which woman was awarded
fifty thousand dollars which was the

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maximum award for were being fired after
she revealed to that she was going to

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transition from male to female Tell us what
employers can do to create safe working

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environments and to raise awareness
around issues of gender identity.

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Well many of the same issues happen in the
workplace as do in the school systems.

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So I think that. You know trans people
have all of the protections that other

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people have in the workplace and that
includes the use of bathrooms that are

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appropriate not having to go to

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a segregated bathroom that's
only for them or that's in

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a different office where they have to walk
up three flights of stairs being treated

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appropriately in the workplace using the
correct pronouns of the person. Not being

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subject to harassment of course not
being fired for coming out as trans or

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transitioning on the job so I think that
you know just creating an environment just

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like the message of. Maybe one two six
six in California sends the message to

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trance Judith's that they have

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a place here I think that employers can
really set the stage for that as well in

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their workplaces by by just making it
impossible for people to be harassing

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people at work and one more thing is that
you know these are very interrelated

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because when students are driven out of
schools by bullying and harassment it

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starts

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a downward spiral for them so that they end
up dropping out of high school unemployed

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and then having

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a hard time getting employment and not
being able to get jobs they end up in

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a in the street or in underground economy
that then brings them into the prison

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system and it's

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a real downward spiral and so I think
that both of these issues show promise in

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a changing landscape which is moving in

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a new direction and I see hope
in that but there's still a lot

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a long way to go. I would
just add to that from

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a policy perspective employers should have
to know identity cremation policy should

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be providing coverage for
transitioning individuals covering

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hormones and medical care
surgeries also having

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transgender issues be part of
Title nine trainings part of anti

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harassment trainings and treated really
as seriously as as sexual harassment as

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many employers do because they're afraid
of being sued by being held accountable

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and I think that the same issue is coming
up more and more as you mention the South

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Dakota case more and more trance paypal
are taking action and suing when they're

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mistreated at work recognize that
if the employer wants me to create

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a supportive climate or
at least certainly not

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a hostile one to be maintained so I
think we're going to see more and more

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litigation and more and more employers being
put on the hot seat there we just had

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this this year you mentioned that case in
the UNWTO nine being. Invoked you also

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had

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a case settlement that came up with. Schools
has been California Arcadia where they

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the government said very specifically that
trans students are covered under Title

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nine and that institutions
of higher education in K.

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Twelve have to be protecting France
students I think going to be

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a really landmark decision in terms of
changing the landscape on on the K.

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To twelve and college level. Certainly
these legal cases can help serve as an

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impetus for bringing forward. Legislation
that will protect the rights of

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transgender individuals at the same time
more than ninety percent of transgender

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people report being harassed in the
workplace and they fear going to legal

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authorities because there's further harassment
at that level so it would seem that

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we need to have training in the legal
system as well any ideas on how to approach

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that. It's the big issue
I think that there's

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a society that has

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a learning curve to go when it comes to
trends and I think the legal system in

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particular is need to catch up with where
where people were starting to see more

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and more laws be put in place to boarding
trans people it still is still very slow

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we only have seventeen states that offer
protection for for transfer people so I

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don't base rumination when it comes to
employment housing public accommodation so

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we're still talking about

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a small number of states that haven't gone
that far to protect and we were getting

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some good case law the government has been
very fantastic in terms of its head on

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line of work and issuing. Missives about
what schools and employers should be

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doing to protect people based upon general
such orientation but I think the courts

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really haven't really caught
up with it we don't have

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a lot of good case law yet and

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a lot of this it is never been litigated
like I'm on my ass all the time well what

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is the legality of this I say Well with
this wife thing but it really has not been

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litigated you know so we don't really
know how that might turn out. And I think

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that we can learn

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a lot from the feminist movement around
issues of sex discrimination and sexual

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harassment and you know learn from the
educational initiatives that feminist women

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have pushed in the workplace in order to
create equal conditions and I think that

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you know trans people can really
learn from that there's also

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a lot of. Trans law organizations that
is Sylvia Rivera Law Project in New York

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does excellent work in representing trans
people there's glad has done great work

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Transgender Law Center so there's

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a lot of organizations now that are working
to create that litigation that will

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that will make it will you know give those
founding cases. Met you mentioned trans

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individuals in and persons
and we know that there was

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a flurry of media activity around the
Private Manning case talked about how the

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media frames transgender people and
issues surrounding transgender

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individuals and the impact that that has
on attempts to make progress toward human

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rights. I think that there's

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a large variation in media coverage of
trans people you know sometimes I mean in

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the one hand media can be very enabling
right so social media Internet has done

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huge things for the trans community and
parents of chance children in terms of

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building support networks and. In all of
the other ways that social media can call

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attention to certain cases. Mainstream
media you know I think that there is

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a large Mary ation in representation to
transfer historically trance Paypal have

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been regularly represented
as. Kind of as liars as

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thieves as as falsely
presenting themselves maybe

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a little bit crazy. You know but that is
really it's starting to change just like

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all of these the the legal landscape in the
schools and media is starting to change

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as well and we're seeing more. Different
representations of trans people and you

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know I think talk about River and Cox

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a little bit you know but the whole Chelsea
Manning case was really interesting

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when when she came out and said I want to
be referred to by Chelsea and as she I

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was just

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a amazed by the amount of attention
that garnered I got more calls from the

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media about that than I've gotten about
any anything so really it's struck

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a chord in for

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a lot of media that was kind of when they
first like oh there's there are some

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issues here we should be talking about
it because the Medicaid was such

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a visible headline grabbing story that
they really want to follow up on that but

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it's so disappointing though to see that
so much of the media even places that are

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tend to be more liberal like N.P.R.

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New York Times were not initially referring
to her as as she and as Chelsea and

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we're doing kind of we're going around that
and saying that this is how the person

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want to refer to herself we're going to
call her he so thankfully they eventually

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got that figured out and realized that I
would better training about what proper

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terminology be using around transgender and
I think in the long run it did help to

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get more people to understand what exactly
we're talking only refer to transgender

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and and people are transitioning and using
appropriate names and programs I think

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it is in the end it did something good but
I think the media really didn't get it

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get it and I think that we showed just
how much the media itself needs to be

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educated on these issues because the media
is just so critical to to how people

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perceive things and their recognition of
things I remember when Chaz Bono went on

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Dancing With The Stars and how big
that was you know which I'm not

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a like you and I kind of thing but you know
how that really put trans people in the

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spotlight in

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a way that had never happened before that
you know that people were turning in and

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seeing this person dance who happen to be
trans and how that helped normalize why

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some people on the radical right were so.
By that because it is making trans people

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just like anyone else and oh my god we can't
have that happen God God forbid. This

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generation we're seeing huge change to take
place because of people I chose Bonnell

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like the Glee Laverne Cox who referred
to being someone who's out as

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a trans person and being successful
as an actor to be able to be in

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a leading show Orange Is The New Black
and. Become very popular and in people

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except her for who she is and movie
making it possible for trance paypal to

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actually for the first time really build
the play trans people on screen as well as

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hopefully in time Bill to play nontransparent
hers as well we brought Laverne to

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you mouse last week and. I thought we get

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a good crowd I was just overwhelmed by
the fact that we we succeeded capacity

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a room had seven hundred people there and
had turned several hundred people away I

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never would have thought that now there
would have been five years ago but it shows

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just how the landscape is changing thanks
to having some visibility in the media

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transferrable all the time the campus
and. Lucky will get fifty people out of

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something so having someone who's like
a celebrity who they recognize who has

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a certain popularity really brings this
issue home and she did great things to say

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about being trans and and educating people
the audience was really fabulous and I

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really want

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a long way I think that helping people who
are who are not trans which was almost

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everyone in the audience will better
understand transition. Well congratulations on

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that along those lines even with such

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a landmark representation as Laverne Cox
on Orange Is The New Black you know she

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she is represented as being selfish in terms
of her wanting to transition and that

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she shouldn't feel in any way betrayed
when her wife or ex-wife you know wants to

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pursue other relationships or and also
she's in there for stealing money for

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hormones and so once again you know we're
seen trans people represented as the as

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selfish you know putting their own
needs in front of the needs of

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a family which is also

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a typical type of thing that we see in
media representations right on or also as

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a comic figure as

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a comic figure show us so the subject of
ridicule and late night talk shows but I

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saw in the characterizations it's

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a kind of neo minstrelsy right applied
to me and I think group. So you

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mentioned young children as
well but I want you to say

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a little bit about what advice
you would give parents I've seen

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a couple of shows recently and read

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a few articles about parents whose
children are identifying. Very early in

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a way that goes against social norms they
are worried about the psychological harm

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that could come from denying those
proclamations and feelings and yet they are

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aware of the the bullying and the abuse
that children can take by going against

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these norms so what would you recommend.
There's a great book The just came out by

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a woman by name Lori Durand who had

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a blog called Raising my rainbow which is
now the name of the book which is about

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raising now six year old child
who she refers to as C.J.

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Who from very young age identified his
gender nonconforming and the struggles that

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they went through as a family to raise

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a child who was gender nonconforming and
basically her movement from. The nice

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thing the best interest of themselves the
parents versus the best interest of that

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child in recognizing

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a lot of what they were doing in terms
trying to restrict the gender behavior that

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was more feminine of this of this males

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a sign child was really not to protect
them but that the child I mean to protect

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the parents and recognizing that the child
need to be who the child was and the

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dangers of not allowing that to happen
because many people who live interview from

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my research who were much older talk about
they were male assigned identified as

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female how their parents basically stifled
that and how that really ruined their

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lives in a lot of ways to force them to
repress who they were to go into really

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a lot of really awful behaviors in terms
of drugs and alcohol and some detective

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suicide is the one really I think. Children
decide where to go with that let the

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children lead you know follow their example
and what their needs are and try to

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pressure them best you can from from blame
in really it's more the parents' own

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culpability more than the
child and comfortability

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a lot of times because our laws to predict
trouble to you know were harassed or

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discriminated against and so really the
parenting Do you know think what's best for

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the children. Good you know so and I would
agree that you know what trance judge

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and need more than anything is
a supportive environment and

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a place where they can explore without
shame become you know ask interesting

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questions let the child lead let's give the
child space to explore who they are you

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know they may change changes they as they
grow older they may not you know but

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following that child and
really just seeing yourself as

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a guide to protect and to create

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a space where that child can be protected
from the harassment that he's either

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she's going to be facing an R.

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In the social world all the time and the
other thing is to get support parents need

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to support themselves they need to see
because they'll be taking criticism too from

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other parents who will feel like they're
indulging their children and so it's

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really important to get support by not that
you're not dealing with out there that

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your child is not the only child like
this and that you know there's wonderful

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support systems through the Internet
especially. And what about gender reassignment

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surgery you have

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a teen who says I'm ready for the surgery
would you allow the team to make the

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decision in the way that you would allow

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a teen to make any serious medical
decision or fortunate not to be in

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a position where we have gender blockers
you know hormone blockers so that people

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can postpone not to where they're in

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a place where they feel they can make that
decision and go through the puberty that

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is that is right for them and so you don't
have to have people to get younger and

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younger as it seems every year so we don't
you know have to have like an eight or

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nine or ten year old making that decision
about transitioning we can have that

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person be on hormone blockers for
several years and then get to

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a more better place bill to make that kind
of decision but we have been doing this

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work for a lot of years so we have

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a good sense of in terms of gender therapist
can tell when we're talking about

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someone who really is transgender versus
someone who may be for whatever reason

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feel like that that is who they are now
that might change in the future. Tell us

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a bit about best practices on college and
university campuses since you're both

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members of the university community wow
OK this is the work I've been doing.

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Writing and speaking to us last fifteen
years so I can go on forever but just very

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briefly I think it's important that
institutions have dinner identity in their

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nondiscrimination policy we only have about
seven hundred colleges that even taken

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that basic step which is about only about
one sixth of the colleges that are done

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so. This year we're we're seeing what's
more rapid increase in that we're

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seeing women's colleges we're seeing this
work the black colleges do that so it's

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a really fantastic increase in the last
couple years when it comes to that having

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dinner inclusive bathrooms and locker rooms
that are that are private facilities

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that people who want to have

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a space that we're not going to be. Those
are other people can can do so and having

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policies that allow people to use the
bathroom and locked rooms that keep their

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gender identity to provide hormones to
surgery as part of student health insurance

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giving students a chance to use

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a different name that in their legal name
on it is to document so this is now two

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by having

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a professor for example read the role on
the phone the first day of class giving

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students

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a chance to change the gender marker as
well so the college recognizes them for who

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they feel themselves to be and then also
providing gender inclusive housing so

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students can have

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a roommate or suite mate or part made of
of whatever gender that they choose so

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that they are in

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a Caldwell living situation and don't have
to worry about being being harassed in

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their own home and about one hundred fifty
colleges have had done that so we've

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missed that's again

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a very small number but we're increasing
very rapid when it comes to that. That's

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fantastic. The concern I hear most is with
respect to inclusive it evolves sorts

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and so if you have conservative Christians
or Muslims students who are proscribed

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from living with someone of the
opposite gender and then there's

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a transition in person they say well what
about our rights what about inclusive and

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for us so how do we respond to that as
well it's you know like for example no one

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says to someone else you have to have

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a roommate of this particular gender you
know it's all it's all sign and it's all

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interested students so it's an accommodation
in the same sort of issues come up

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when we're talking about conservative
Christian students or Orthodox Jewish

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students or or Muslim students you know
their needs are coming as well no one's

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being told they have to live with

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a certain person in their environment
it's more of giving this or one kind of

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a chance to be comfortable and safe
and feel included. And. Any last

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comments well I'd just like
to emphasize that you know

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a lot of the topics we're talking about
today are addressing people that you know

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for the most part already have

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a certain amount of social and economic
privilege you know getting into colleges

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and employment situations and things like
that and. You know I'm always very aware

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that I don't really represent the trans
community at large I often feel very much

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like an anomaly in that I have certain
privileges and economic and educational

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privileges that the vast majority of
transferrable don't have and so particularly

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trans women of color
who are you know I did

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a quick google very cursory Google search
this morning on the transfer of color in

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the number of murders and homicides that
are taking place and since July when

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Diamond Williams was
killed I found eight in

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a very quick Google search eight since July
of trans women of color that are being

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murdered on this on the streets every day
and so you know I feel like. You know

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it's just always really important to keep
that in mind that there's many many many

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trans people the majority of trans people
are really marginalized economically and

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socially. I think you need to add to that
you know. You're talking mostly about

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this country but around the world trans
people now color you know face huge to

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discrimination and I think it's an eighty
people were killed just in the first four

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months of this year or trans people around
the world that we know of of course are

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many more we don't know about and almost
all those who are trans will call are from

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very poor backgrounds and who didn't have

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a chance to do to escape from poverty
and and such when we speak about media

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representation I'd really love to see more
media representation of the homicides

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that are taking place you know like that's
where I would really like to see more

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media coverage rather than on the sexual
reassignment issues or issues around

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surgery and hormones is just

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a very small segment of the issues that
face chance people thank you so much for

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your insights and your
extraordinary contributions thank

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you you thank

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.